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Offline saved

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Transgender and the church
« on: July 28, 2010, 01:28:38 PM »
I am posing a question that in today's world that is certainly possible and even more it is very probable to happen. Lets say that a couple join the church and are married. They have a family and attend for several years and become a loved part of the church. Even to yourself. They both are very active and teach at the church as well as carry out other duties. The person who is the wife is transgender, she has had the sex change, but no one knows except her/his husband. She/he had the sex change several years before she made a profession in Christ. Now she/he is serving the Lord the best way she knows how.
However as many times happens the truth come to light to the church about her/his sex change. How should this be handled by the leadership? Should they both be allowed to continue to carry on as if all is normal or should there be some changes made and what?

Isaiah 48:18, “Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.”

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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2010, 06:55:39 PM »
I am posing a question that in today's world that is certainly possible and even more it is very probable to happen. Lets say that a couple join the church and are married. They have a family and attend for several years and become a loved part of the church. Even to yourself. They both are very active and teach at the church as well as carry out other duties. The person who is the wife is transgender, she has had the sex change, but no one knows except her/his husband. She/he had the sex change several years before she made a profession in Christ. Now she/he is serving the Lord the best way she knows how.
However as many times happens the truth come to light to the church about her/his sex change. How should this be handled by the leadership? Should they both be allowed to continue to carry on as if all is normal or should there be some changes made and what?


They carry on as if nothing happened.  Is it uncomfortably weird?  Yeah, but God can work around it, and so can we. ;D

As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2010, 06:56:02 PM »
By the way, welcome back Saved! :)

As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

Offline skiguy

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2010, 06:59:19 PM »
Hi saved, it should be treated the way any other past sin is:

"But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1Cor 6:11)

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2010, 07:12:15 PM »
Jesus said if a part of your body offends you, to cut it off.  I reckon that could be applied to one's gender.  If your gender offends you, and now that we have a medical means of remedying that, then I guess it's the same approach.  Now I understand that if God created you as a man, but you prefer to be a woman, then you are going against what God has established as the potter.  It is not right for the clay to tell the potter what type of vessel it should be.  I get that too.  However, in the greater scheme of things, God is primarily interested in the soul over the body.  The body is a shell and will be discarded at death.  Is changing gender a sin?  If it's for the purpose of making a homosexual impulse "technically legal" then yes.  If it is because one is genuinely offended with being a man (or woman) then it's not sin necessarily, but internal confusion that needs sorting out....and God may not like it, but He can be patient and work around it as He does with all things.  I get the feeling though that most who do this do so because they have lusts they want to fulfill, and see this as a get out of jail free card.  Again, why would God turn away a couple who seek Him just because they are social misfits?  Did he not seek after Mary Magdalene?  Was she not a harlot?  Did she not understand forgiveness more having been persecuted for her "oddness" than those who were "normal?"  I can see a transgender being even more desirous of God's forgiveness living in a world where one's identity is so confused to begin with.

As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

Offline skiguy

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2010, 07:22:45 PM »
Medically he may be a she.  But seeing that she was born and created as a man, I wonder how God sees it.  Does God, or should we, view the marriage as a homosexual union?

Just a thought to throw out there.

Offline skiguy

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2010, 07:29:23 PM »
Mary Magdalene stopped being a protest and followed Jesus. She repented. Maybe this married couple needs to repent (separate?).

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2010, 08:11:49 PM »
The fact that someone disfigures themselves through surgery does not change them from being what they were born unto any more then simply wearing the opposite sex clothing makes them that sex.  Both should be called into counseling and lovingly explained to about their sin and what the bible says about it. If they repent and separate they should be allowed to continue in the fellowship of the church although they would need to give up their teaching positions for a time to see if they are real. As far as the marriage there was never really a biblical marriage in the first place. Pretending to be what we are not does not make it so no matter to what length we may go. Also the male who was altered by surgery would need to stop trying to live as a woman and live as a male the rest of his life which is what he was born as. While he could never function as a male sexually because of his sin, he could still live and act as one in every other aspect giving God the Glory with the rest of his life.

Isaiah 48:18, “Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.”

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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2010, 08:18:53 PM »
The fact that someone disfigures themselves through surgery does not change them from being what they were born unto any more then simply wearing the opposite sex clothing makes them that sex.  Both should be called into counseling and lovingly explained to about their sin and what the bible says about it. If they repent and separate they should be allowed to continue in the fellowship of the church although they would need to give up their teaching positions for a time to see if they are real. As far as the marriage there was never really a biblical marriage in the first place. Pretending to be what we are not does not make it so no matter to what length we may go. Also the male who was altered by surgery would need to stop trying to live as a woman and live as a male the rest of his life which is what he was born as. While he could never function as a male sexually because of his sin, he could still live and act as one in every other aspect giving God the Glory with the rest of his life.


I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't think God is limited to this either.  The "marriage" is a sham in God's eyes definitely.  I don't think the Church should force the couple to separate as a condition to remain in the congregation though.  If you force ultimatums on folks, you can push them away from God, and this too is a sin.  If the couple is seeking God by making an effort to attend a church, then eventually God will find a way to sort it out.  Pushing them out the door might actually limit God in this case. 

As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

Offline saved

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2010, 08:24:50 PM »
You cannot push someone away from God who is not following God. You show them the error of theiir way in a loving manner and if they refuse to repent you put them out.  Also no one seeks after God. Read Romans. If they were wanted a real relationship with God they would repent.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 08:28:52 PM by saved »
Isaiah 48:18, “Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.”

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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2010, 08:28:21 PM »
You cannot push someone away from God who is not following God. You show them the error of theiir way in a loving manner and if they refuse to repent you put them out.


You sin as much as that couple in God's eyes.  Their public sin is no different than the ones you and I harbor in secret.  Yet you and I are saved by the same blood as the transgender couple.  God does not put degrees on sin, and yes people can be sinning against God while also seeking His face.  Happens all the time.

As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2010, 08:29:37 PM »
Not according to the bible.
1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (continue to) sin, because he is born of God.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 08:32:35 PM by saved »
Isaiah 48:18, “Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.”

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2010, 08:35:17 PM »
Not according to the bible.
1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (continu to) sin, because he is born of God.


The same Bible that told us of David's slaying of Uriah (while being a man after God's own heart).  The same Bible that told us of Moses who slayed an Egyptian in anger for how he treated a Hebrew.  The same Bible that tells us of Peter who denied Jesus Christ in fear of suffering the same fate.  Even Judas Iscariot loved Jesus and sought him yet betrayed him simply because he misunderstood who Jesus was.  It happens in the Bible over and over again.

As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2010, 08:36:27 PM »
Not according to the bible.
1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (continue to) sin, because he is born of God.


Jesus is the only one who fits that description.

As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

Offline saved

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2010, 09:43:31 PM »
Then you better throw away your bible because it is speaking about the saved and Jesus was never saved. He had no need of it.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 09:46:38 PM by saved »
Isaiah 48:18, “Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.”

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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2010, 04:49:58 PM »
Then you better throw away your bible because it is speaking about the saved and Jesus was never saved. He had no need of it.


You need to take that verse in proper context.  Go back up to verse 2:

2   Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Until Jesus returns, we aren't like him.  But when he returns, we shall be like him....future tense.  Until then, we are prone to the sin nature like Paul said in Romans 7: 18-20:

18   For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19   For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20   Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


As long as you walk in flesh, you carry the sin nature.  In other words, it is impossible not to sin as long as you need air to breath, water to drink, and food to eat.  After you are translated into your glorified body, then you will truly sin no more.

As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2010, 06:59:37 PM »
No my friend sin is a choice. God never judges a person what they cannot do. The bib le clearly says;
1Cor 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
Isaiah 48:18, “Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.”

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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2010, 07:14:18 PM »
No my friend sin is a choice. God never judges a person what they cannot do. The bib le clearly says;
1Cor 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].


If sin were just a choice, then people could be saved on their own by choosing not to sin, but since everyone sins which includes you even now, then sin must be a component of our nature as Paul clearly argues.  To be human is to sin.  Sin is not evil in of itself.  Eve wasn't being evil when she listened to the serpent.  The serpent was being evil.  Giving in to temptation is not evil, it's becoming victimized by evil.  And I think this is where you are getting off track. :)

As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2010, 11:15:12 AM »

[/quote] If sin were just a choice, then people could be saved on their own by choosing not to sin, but since everyone sins which includes you even now, then sin must be a component of our nature as Paul clearly argues.  To be human is to sin.  Sin is not evil in of itself.  Eve wasn't being evil when she listened to the serpent.  The serpent was being evil.  Giving in to temptation is not evil, it's becoming victimized by evil.  And I think this is where you are getting off track. :)
[/quote]

All sin is a choice. No one ever has to sin. You nor any one can name me any sin that they absolutely had to do. NOT ONE! If we had to sin then there would be nothing to confess.
Look at it this way. Let's say that you had a child that was born totally paralyzed. He would never be able to walk or even feed himself. So for the first 10 or 12 years you take care all his needs. However when he becomes a certain age you go to him and make the following statements. Son you are of age now and it is time that you carry your own weight. I am giving you some commands. You have to take out the garbage, make your bed feed yourself and so on. If you fail I am going to severely punish you. However the son looks at his father and begins to weep. The son says I am sorry father for being so evil. Will you forgive me? The father looks at the son and says yes son since you are confessing your sin I will forgive you. Then the child starts praising the father for his forgiveness and the father accepts the praise with gladness.
Now let me say that this father is not only a bad father he is an self center over bearing idiot that accepts praise he has no right to.
The point is if God gave us commands we cannot obey He would be accepting praise and honor for something He has no right to. We do not confess things that we cannot possibly obey. If you obey them once you can obey them every time. No one has to murder, no one has to commit adultery, no one has to use God's name in vain, no one has to steal, no one has to lie, no one has to commit adultery and so on. Every sin we commit is totally and simply because we love sin rather then God, not because we don't have a choice. Today the reason that people want to say that we cannot live apart from sin is because they love their sin and do not want to be fond out just how much. They are sin deniers. So we all sin yes but not because we have to, but because we love ourselves more then God. Now about this sin nature thing. No place in the bible does it say we have a sin nature. There may be some translation someplace that uses that terminology, but it is not in any text. Before the commandments men still sinned. The commandments only point out what we love and who we hate. They do not offer us hope.
Your assumption about eve is totally incorrect. She did sin, but Adam was held responsible for the fall, not eve. The reason is that he was the head, not eve. Her sin did not bring the fall, Adam's did. You can read about that in Romans. And yes I agree with you that you are totally off track in this area.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 11:50:22 AM by saved »
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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2010, 04:33:32 PM »
You do not grasp the concept of original sin.  You are born into it and cannot escape it.  Your debt is paid by the cross.  What you seem not to understand is, just by accepting Jesus and what he did on the cross, doesn't magically transform you into something that can no longer sin....and yes we sin unwittingly without thinking about it.  Sometimes we sin when we think we are doing the right thing (think about Paul's persecution of the Church).  You are correct when you say we love sin.  We love it because we possess the trait of pride.  Pride is what leads to all sin.  If you have pride, you sin.  You war with your flesh that has lusts.  The very part of you that lusts (your flesh) binds you to sin.  Christ will liberate you from the flesh eventually, and then, and only then will you be unable to sin.  Until then, you will sin.  God understands this.  Jesus said the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.  It is the flesh that sins and not the spirit.  This is why Paul says it is not he who sins but the sin that dwells within him via the flesh.  So what can you do?  Rip the flesh off your body?  No.  But you can pray for forgiveness each time you sin (the cross covers the debt of sin, but praying for forgiveness brings one back into the Will of God). 

You see, saved, sin is more than a choice, it is an entity unto its own as Paul clearly states in Romans.  It dwells inside us.  We are victims to it....slaves to it even.  We have the choice not to sin, but without God's intervention, we cannot overcome sin nor can we willfully choose not to sin without His guidance and help.  Just like the lines from Amazing Grace (saved a wretch like me), we are wretched in our human condition.  Original Sin is the source of our wretchedness.  It is a part of who and what we are, and only through the transposition of Christ's spirit within us, can we be free of it.  That's why we can't judge others of their sins, because we are already captives to our own sins. 

You make it sound like people who sin are evil.  They are not evil because they sin, they are victims of their weakness and inability to be free from sin.  Instead of pushing such people away because they do not conform to your idea of righteousness, instead you should embrace them, bring them into your company, and help them in any way you can to fight against their personal sins. 

This brings us to the process of sanctification, but that's for another thread.

As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

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Re: Transgender and the church
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2010, 09:56:06 AM »
This is actually another topic. I would be more then willing to respond to the subject matter you have proposed here if you start another topic. God bless.
Isaiah 48:18, “Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.”

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