Topic: The Doctrine Of Election

What does it mean to you?  What does it not mean?  Here are some verses that mention the word "election" in them.  I'd like to hear your thoughts before I give mine.  Atheists are welcome to participate as well, but only if you have a good understanding of the theology.

  Romans 9:11   (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


Romans 11:5   Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Romans 11:7   What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded


Romans 11:28   As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.


1 Thessalonians 1:4   Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.


2 Peter 1:10   Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

I believe another word that would go good there is anointed as well. Those selected to be in heaven with God.

I believe another word that would go good there is anointed as well. Those selected to be in heaven with God.

When you say "selected" what do you mean?

Those chosen by God to receive that Gift because of their righteous conduct.

Those chosen by God to receive that Gift because of their righteous conduct.

God's eternal choice to save a person is conditioned on God’s certain foreknowledge of future events, namely, that certain individuals would exercise faith and trust in response to God's offer of salvation.

Whereas in Unconditional Election, God's choice in based entirely on His own good pleasure, not on any foreseen choice of individuals.

[from wiki] The first is what I think you guys are talking about; the second Calvinist thought. Nice if the former, based on what we see happening in the world, perhaps the latter.

Donald, I'm not sure but I suppose you are using the King James Bible.  How specifically accurate is that translation in those verses?  Just checking the Amplified for contrast, I see that Romans 11:5 says,
"5 So too at the present time there is a remnant (a small believing minority), selected (chosen) by grace (by God's unmerited favor and graciousness)."

As an English teacher, I always note the differences in English between using a noun instead of a verb - big difference.  The noun election is not used, rather the two active verbs, selected and chosen.  In fact, selected is one word we're discussing now.

Does God simply choose for us to be saved, or does He hold an election?  Who votes?

It's a combination of election AND free will.

Did I skirt around the question good enough? 

In all seriousness, if you are called (predestined, chosen, elected; whatever word you want to use) you WILL come to God.  God alone saves us, we have absoutely nothing to do with our salvation.

Why is it, Fit, whenever there's something in the Bible that goes against what you WANT to think, believe or feel, you pull out the "translation card"?

Why is it, you ask?  Well, maybe I pull out the translation card because the Southern Baptists taught me that was the way to begin to 'rightly divide the word of truth.'  The translation method is how you find out what the Bible means, what it originally meant.  I'm not trying to argue (not yet; we don't even have positions on the doctrine Donald's trying to present).  We're defining the terms.  It's a great way to start a discussion.

If you believe a text is divinely inspired and perfectly correct in its original language, you need to know what those words meant then, and you have to translate them correctly.  LSIDFUOWIE7RUWER0923-4R582345  Do you understand that?  How about sdfk dfoier feie soedirwo eiruiweior iuweori o? Does it mean I hope you enjoyed the fried chicken tonight, or Jehosophat prophesied his reign would end when the juniper tree blossomed with eerioeioee flowers?

So skigy, what does election mean?  What do the verses mean that Donald has given us? 

Donald, I apologize for my first reply being so brief, and not to the point you were trying to make.  I was preoccupied about the nonviolent protests in Myanmar, and was on my way out the door to do some things.

I note that three of those verses that translate "election" in the KJV are from Romans 11.  So, the immediate text is that entire chapter, which I've just read in the NIV.  Clearly, Romans 11 is about the Jews, and their inclusion in the kingdom of God, a continuation from Romans 9 and 10, whereas chapters 12 and 13 are a different theme and separate unit.  I note that 11:28 refers to "...they are enemies on your account, but as far as election is concerned, they are loved..."  Romans 11:5 as I mentioned earlier, uses the verb "chosen' instead of the noun "election," so that it reads, "...there is a remnant chosen by grace."  11:7 reads in the NIV, "...Israel...did not obtain (it), but the elect did."  There, the word 'elect' represents "those people who were elected" by God.  11:28 refers to 'as far as the election is concerned, they are loved..." 

So yes, there was a choice, an election by God, who chose both Jews and Gentiles to be saved as chosen people.

In view of the democratic process of choosing candidates in "elections," we need to point out that this was a divine dictatorship/kingdom in which God made the choice without consulting the electorate or the ones who got elected.  Indeed, a democratic election is when the voters decide, or choose, who will be the elected one.

Going back to Romans 9:11, Paul is contrasting Rebekah's two sons, Isaac and Ishmael, in which God chose to bless the younger more than the elder twin, and this was God's purpose in the election.  I think this 'election' is little more, in immediate context of Genesis 25, of God choosing Isaac instead of Ishamel, and only by extension does this relate to the Jews versus the Gentiles (if Ishamael was even Gentile!).

I Thessalonians 1:4:  In the NIV, the phrase says, "...he has chosen you..."  Now, this repeated contrast in translations - using a noun 'election' or a verb like 'chose, selected' is bothering me, perhaps unnecessarily.

The amplified: brethren beloved by God, we recognize and know that He has selected (chosen) you;
The New American Standard: knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
American Standard Version: knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,
Young's literal: having known, brethren beloved, by God, your election
La Biblia Sencillo: ...sabemos que él los ha elegido para que sean parte de su pueblo. (God has chosen...)
Reina-Valera Antigua: ... vuestra elección; (your election)
Reina-Valera 1960: vuestra elección;
Reina-Valera 1995: que él os ha elegido,

I give up my fine point!  In either language, various learned scholars seem roughly evenly divided as to whether the term means 'your election' by God, or God has chosen you.  It probably doesn't matter.  God chooses who are saved.

Donald, do you agree?  Or is this some part of a sinister left-handed Calvinist plot?

   


   

Well I had a point to make, but it got lost in the translation.

I believe God chooses who He saves and who He doesn't based upon my understanding (and Calvin's) of the term "elect" and "select."  I see the term "elect" as being synonomous with "appoint."  Since God didn't offer up the vote to anyone else, He is the sole electorate.  Now God has to make a choice based on the fruits of our spirits (which of course is overshadowed by Christ if He sees Christ in us).  Since we know our spiritual fruits are worthless when it comes to gaining salvation (Christ's fruits being the only spiritual benchmark God recognizes), we must assume all are born into a state of damnation (all things being constant).

However, all things are not constant here.  Jesus makes it possible for all that are born to have hope for salvation.  Yet at the same time, Jesus says "Many are called, but few are chosen."  First of all, who are those God calls?  If it is just "many" that means not all are called.  Or does "many" mean everyone and only a small few hear the call?  Now either way you break it down, the bottom line is salvation is only going to be gained for a minority. 

Theologically we must examine this further.  If many are called and only a few answer the call, some might not have been called at all......or if you are the persuasion that everyone is called, but only a few answer....then you have an even greater problem that God's message is somehow insufficient to where only a small minority even bother to answer.  I have more problem with the latter than I do with the former.

Consider this....if we are not pre-destined, why do so many not heed the call of God?  Why does God's message work for some but not most? (Don't get too wrapped up in my clumsy way of saying this...I don't think God is goofing up in any way).  To clarify what I am saying, I submit that God must call a little louder and more persuasively to some, but less so to the rest.  For example, Jesus selected who were going to be a part of His inner circle.  They met no specific qualifications...in fact most were simple fishermen or tax collectors.  Jesus was a simple carpenter Himself so even He was not of the traditional qualifications to be a rabbi.  But when Jesus asked Peter who He really was, when Peter proclaimed Him Messiah and Savior, Jesus told Peter that he could not have known His identity without the Father revealing it to Him.

Okay, so what you ask?  Jesus, when asked what must be done to be saved He replied, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."  So we know from this that salvation can only be granted by God, and that there is nothing man can do to save himself.  So by default, man must be in a state of damnation from the beginning.  If this is so, how can man (or a man) do or say anything that influences God's decision on who to save?  I submit that he can't say or do anything that will cause God to "check him in the saved column."  If Jesus said Peter couldn't even know who Jesus was without revelation from the Father, how then can anyone know Jesus without divine help?  Just knowing the Jesus story and saying to your friends that you "believe" in Jesus does not mean you are "saved."

Now I know what I'm saying is bothersome (and it bothers me from time to time), but then again, it makes sense because no matter what you say, you can't tell me 100% positively surely that you "know" you are saved.  The Bible says many will say "Lord Lord" but He will say "Depart hence for I never knew you."  The only way for God to "know" you is for Him to introduce Himself to you and tell you who He really is.  God has to introduce Himself and reveal Himself to each and every person in order for that person to "know" Him.  This means God has to make the first move every time.  This also means that only those who "know" Him will accept Him.  I submit that NO ONE will reject God if God introduces Himself and reveals Himself.  Those who reject God are hardened by God to do so.  Examples are Nebuchadnezzar, Pharaoh, and King Saul.  God manifested His power to each, but God also hardened each of their hearts so that they would reject Him.  Why?  So God could magnify His name through them.

I'll stop here cause I know you guys have things to say.   

God has given us the free will to choose to live for him or to live for this world...Satans world. Oh and how Satan has made the lights bright and all the wonderful things to go after to make one comfortable and content...without God. Many choose this world over God, most of them...remember broad is the road leading to destruction and narrow is the gate leading to life. God is giving us the choice to choose which road we want and unfortunatly many are choosing the wrong one. Look at the Israelites, how many times did God show his powerful miracles to them but the chose to disobey anyway. How many times did the Pharisee's witness Jesus' miracles and listen to his wonderful message and yet went away seeking a way to do away with him? Have things changed? Has Satan changed? No. Unfortunatly most dont want God, they'd rather have pleasure and fun, trying to take advantage of the sacrifice of the Christ.

God has given us the free will to choose to live for him or to live for this world...Satans world. Oh and how Satan has made the lights bright and all the wonderful things to go after to make one comfortable and content...without God. Many choose this world over God, most of them...remember broad is the road leading to destruction and narrow is the gate leading to life. God is giving us the choice to choose which road we want and unfortunatly many are choosing the wrong one. Look at the Israelites, how many times did God show his powerful miracles to them but the chose to disobey anyway. How many times did the Pharisee's witness Jesus' miracles and listen to his wonderful message and yet went away seeking a way to do away with him? Have things changed? Has Satan changed? No. Unfortunatly most dont want God, they'd rather have pleasure and fun, trying to take advantage of the sacrifice of the Christ.

I do not disagree with any of this.  I still believe what I am saying holds true as well.  It's not a zero sum game either.