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Author Topic: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?  (Read 18778 times)

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Offline Fit2BThaied

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Donald Baker has quoted this Scripture several times: "12 "Everything is permissible for me"?but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"....which is part of I Corinthians 6:12, which then concludes, "?but I will not be mastered by anything."

What does that mean?  The NIV translation, above, puts certain critical phrases in quotations, with this footnote: "Paul is quoting some in the Corinthian congregation who boasted that they had a right to do anything they pleased (see verse 13, and I Cor 7:1 and I Cor 10:23).  The apoostle counters by observing that such 'freedom' of action may not benefit the Christian...."

For example, let's say there's something in New Testament Scripture that is clearly commanded.  Of course, my favorites would include "Love your enemies" and "Live at peace with all men" "peace....against such, there is no law."  Therefore, not everything is permissible, is it? 

Consider the context, which is I Corinthians 6, about sexual immorality.  Yes, I know that chapter includes some strange condemnation against raping slaves, or something else unclear (don't rape slaves, however!).   Surely Paul is not telling the Corinthians (who lived in one of the most immoral cities of that age) that it's permissible to commit all kinds of sexual sins.

What is Paul permitting?  Donald, I have never understood how you apply this verse, especially when you think it's okay to not be a pacifist, and that I am 'unequally yoked' to extreme pacifism when you are unyoked to a gunslinging mindset... ;D

I don't know what you mean by your use of this snippet from I Corinthians 6, Donald.  Can you interpret that passage, preferably using the conservative Southern Baptist methods of literal interpretation?  Thanks.  Just kidding about gunslinging.... :)
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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2007, 10:24:58 PM »
1 Corinthians chapter 10

For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
They were all baptised into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
They all ate the same spiritual food
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.
Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry.
We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
We should not test the Lord, as some of them did, and were killed by snakes.
And do not grumble, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroying angel.
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfilment of the ages has come.
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.
I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar?
Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything?
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons.
Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible, but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.
Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience,
for, The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.
If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if anyone says to you, This has been offered in sacrifice, then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake,
the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?
If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.
Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God,
even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.


And Compare to Romans 14:

Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
 1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
 5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

 9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
? ?" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
? ?'every knee will bow before me;
? ? ? every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

 13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

 19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.



My theology comes from these two passages.  Paul is using the example of formerly unclean food to demonstrate that Christians yoke themselves to different observances.  Some Christians may still find eating certain foods as unclean while others have no problems eating those foods, or one group may uphold a holiday over another, but it is not required for us to all believe the same or be yoked to the same beliefs.  However, in order to edify those who believe differently, we are to not violate the observances of our fellow Christians lest they stumble.  It's a matter of how firmly one is yoked compared to another.  Paul is warning us to not yoke ourselves to legalisms as much as we can, but not to offend those who are more legalistic so that the body of Christ is edified.

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2007, 10:56:46 PM »
Thanks, Donald, for that lengthy and helpful information.  I see that Paul used that phrase "all things are permissible" both in chapter 6 and 10 of I Corinthians.  I notice that also in chapter 10, the NIV puts those statements within quotation marks, as if quoting the members of the Corinthian church, but not necessarily fully endorsing the ideas.

In your personal remarks about the meaning of these phrases, you state that Paul is referring to such things as the former dietary rules (under the Law of Moses), and various holy days (again, probably under the Law of Moses).  But in your rejection of my presentation of pacifism, I think you claimed that while it is not permissible for me to participate in modern warfare, you could participate in such, or you could bless it, because I was yoked too extremely or too strongly with a teaching that you didn't accept.  And you could bless it because such violence is permissible to you.

Likewise, the passage you quoted from Romans 10 deals primarily with Christians respecting those who as fellow Christians still observe Jewish practices, or have similar scruples about diet and holy days.  Naturally, this verse jumps out at me: "19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification."  I know that in its context, that verse also means that I shouldn't trouble you too much even if I think you're giving aid and comfort to kill the enemies we are commanded to love.

The passage about not offending the weaker brother always reminds me when Jerry Falwell preached this, stating that Bob Jones, Jr., was his weaker brother because Jones had a far longer list of Christian "thou shalt not"'s!!

Morally then Donald, is it permissible for a church member to sexually have his stepmother?  Should we allow practicing prostitutes to share communion with us?  A genocidal soldier, with his victims' blood still fresh on his uniform, to teach Sunday School?   Are you saying that every act of what we usually consider sin, is 'permissible'?  What are you suggesting?  Did Jesus not command lots of things which would be a sin to disregard or violate? 

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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2007, 06:01:29 PM »
This applies to "disputable things."  Incest would not be disputable.  Absolutist doctrines though are disputable.

Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2007, 06:04:39 PM »
Other examples would be if I go to a party with my friends who drink excessively, as long as I know I won't drink I can attend the party without being corrupted by the sin around me.  However, my friend John Doe can't go because he thinks associating with drunkards is a sin.  Because of John's stance I could not go to the party lest I cause him to stumble.  I don't attend because of the damage it would cause our friendship and his walk with Christ.

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2007, 06:38:07 PM »
Other examples would be if I go to a party with my friends who drink excessively, as long as I know I won't drink I can attend the party without being corrupted by the sin around me.? However, my friend John Doe can't go because he thinks associating with drunkards is a sin.? Because of John's stance I could not go to the party lest I cause him to stumble.? I don't attend because of the damage it would cause our friendship and his walk with Christ.

That's an excellent example, Don.?

I also think the "everything is permissible" part is not meaning sin.? In 1Cor, Paul explains those living in sin should be disciplined from the Church.? That doesn't mean losing salvation or anything though.? So if someone continues a life of drunkenness, idolatry etc, it doesn't mean he/she isn't a Christian, but the person needs to be disciplined....thrown out into the world so the sinful nature can be destroyed. Which I think means in the case of a drunkard for example, he knows what he's doing is wrong, so he will suffer from guilt and depression and all the other health issues that go along with it until he comes back to God in repentance.

Could you please explain from your previous post what you mean by "absolutist doctrine"?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 06:42:07 PM by skiguy »

Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2007, 06:49:42 PM »
Other examples would be if I go to a party with my friends who drink excessively, as long as I know I won't drink I can attend the party without being corrupted by the sin around me.? However, my friend John Doe can't go because he thinks associating with drunkards is a sin.? Because of John's stance I could not go to the party lest I cause him to stumble.? I don't attend because of the damage it would cause our friendship and his walk with Christ.

That's an excellent example, Don.?

I also think the "everything is permissible" part is not meaning sin.? In 1Cor, Paul explains those living in sin should be disciplined from the Church.? That doesn't mean losing salvation or anything though.? So if someone continues a life of drunkenness, idolatry etc, it doesn't mean he/she isn't a Christian, but the person needs to be disciplined....thrown out into the world so the sinful nature can be destroyed. Which I think means in the case of a drunkard for example, he knows what he's doing is wrong, so he will suffer from guilt and depression and all the other health issues that go along with it until he comes back to God in repentance.

Could you please explain from your previous post what you mean by "absolutist doctrine"?

Absolutist Doctrine would be any doctrine that does not allow exceptions when confronted with situations that a greater good is called for which might require a "bending" of that doctrine to achieve it. 

Not to pick on Fit, but if there is a rushing group of soldiers coming to slaughter everyone in town, and you possess a grenade that will kill them before they slaughter innocent people, I think abandoning pacifism would be the greater good to save the lives of innocents.  To not throw the grenade at the onrushing soldiers would indirectly incriminate you with their actions because you had the power to stop the bloodshed.  Fit would argue that he is commanded to pacifism and should only put his body in between himself and the soldiers....which obviously would do no good, but get himself killed with the others.  God would look upon such an act as "foolish" when he provided a means of delivering innocent people from butchers.  Of course there are other examples.

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2007, 12:36:35 AM »
Donald, there are endless examples, but none of them would be from the New Testament.  That's why I thought you were Episcopal or Catholic!  My hermeneutic is basically taken from the textbook I bought at Southwest Baptist Theological Seminary when I was briefly enrolled there in 1971.  The textbook was by an ultra conservative seminary professor  Maybe Southern Baptists are much more liberal and permissive now, less Scriptural, than they were then.

Your example of the crowd of soldiers coming at me and my loved ones, to kill us, sounds absurd and unrealistic.  What if 500 armed soldiers were coming at us, and we only had one little sword?  Jesus forbade Peter to use the sword, and made the entire cohort of Roman soldiers fall to the ground by merely stating, "I AM!"

I'm not just arguing that I'm commanded to a rather extreme form of pacifism, nonviolence and love toward all enemies.  I'm arguing that all Christians are commanded to that!  The examples you've cited seem to be disputable matters regarding the observance of the Law of Moses after Jesus completely fulfilled and cancelied all its demands.  There is no law against peace, and there are countless commands to live peacefully/peaceably.  How can you argue against something like peace?
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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2007, 07:12:09 PM »
Donald, there are endless examples, but none of them would be from the New Testament.? That's why I thought you were Episcopal or Catholic!? My hermeneutic is basically taken from the textbook I bought at Southwest Baptist Theological Seminary when I was briefly enrolled there in 1971.? The textbook was by an ultra conservative seminary professor? Maybe Southern Baptists are much more liberal and permissive now, less Scriptural, than they were then.

Your example of the crowd of soldiers coming at me and my loved ones, to kill us, sounds absurd and unrealistic.? What if 500 armed soldiers were coming at us, and we only had one little sword?? Jesus forbade Peter to use the sword, and made the entire cohort of Roman soldiers fall to the ground by merely stating, "I AM!"

I'm not just arguing that I'm commanded to a rather extreme form of pacifism, nonviolence and love toward all enemies.? I'm arguing that all Christians are commanded to that!? The examples you've cited seem to be disputable matters regarding the observance of the Law of Moses after Jesus completely fulfilled and cancelied all its demands.? There is no law against peace, and there are countless commands to live peacefully/peaceably.? How can you argue against something like peace?

I went to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville.  I sat and heard Dr. Mohler lecture many times.  So what?  I have Dr. Broadus's classic text on hermeneutics here at the house.  So what? 

Of course Jesus told Peter to put the sword away.  Jesus being captured was part of the plan.  The cross was the greater good.  But God struck down his own son Fit.....assigned your and my guilt to Jesus who was innocent...that is immoral on the base level, but it is the greater good at the higher level.  Tamar committed fornication to procure offspring and God blessed her.  It's all about the greater good God has in mind.  Legalism, even pacifist legalism can be wrong at times.

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2007, 10:06:42 AM »
Donald, I asked about hermeneutics because I don't see you utilizing Scriptures much for morality or Christian ethics.   Yoder pointed out that problem in 1971: that ethics professors taught morality without theology, just philosophy.

But maybe that's off topic.  Where are we on this question?
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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2007, 08:36:09 PM »
I don't know.  Where do you think we are?  I'm basically saying that legalism is a yoke Christians don't require to wear anymore.  However, God allows for Christians to yoke themselves to legalisms, but requires them to uphold the standards they set for themselves.  Paul says we are to help our brothers and sisters who are yoked to something bear their yoke even if we ourselves are not specifically yoked to the same thing.  You are yoked with absolute pacifism, I am not.  I am pacifist as long as it is the greater good, but when it is not, then I understand that sometimes force is necessary to protect the innocent or to bring a swifter peace.

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2007, 11:16:49 PM »
One man's legalism can be another man's standard rules.  My ethnic Anabaptist friends preach sermons against legalism they learned as children, legalism that is unbelievable to someone who spent decades in Southern Baptist life. 

So, Donald, do you think there are any rules or 'laws' in the Christian New Testament, or modern Christian life?  How come you think I can't be a homosexual, but you can limit your usage of peace (against which there is no law), based on non-Scriptural philosophical ramblings about the greater good?  What's next, the lesser of two evils?  "Necessary evils"?

As I mentioned previously, you do not have to consider my 'extreme pacifism' as an absurd, absolute position to which the only alternative is to wage war incessantly.  Or, that you need to support every war of your country (what about Christians in enemy countries?).  I suggest that you simply read the New Testament from start to finish, asking only how the words relate to how we disciples should live.  Instead of asking "What would Jesus do?" which is good, ask, "What does Jesus want us to do, based on what he and other Biblical writers tell us Christians should do?"

Have you some concrete examples of Jesus killing people for the better good, and telling us to "go and do thou likewise"?
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Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2008, 07:23:38 AM »
Rather than starting a new topic (as the forum-generated red alert mentions), I thought I would reactivate this topic (and maybe not get in the last word, this time!).

Pardon me if I was slow to understand (that happens sometimes), but are there certain, New Testament, obvious commands that we are commanded to follow?  If Scripture contains no exceptions, give us no loopholes, and clearly speaks, can we then invoke some pagan concept of the "higher good" as if God or God's Word wasn't high enough and good enough. Is God's word good enough if it says "Peace...against which there is no law"?  Where are the exceptions listed in the verses that use words such as every and none?

Donald, one apparent exception that you mentioned is that God the Father killed Jesus for the higher good of bringing us to salvation.  God's rights are not our rights.  Besides, God did not directly kill the Son.

Your example of fortunately having a grenade handy when the evil enemy soldiers come to kill the innocent soldiers is absurd and unlikely.  It appears you not only wish to justify personal self-defense (with no New Testament proof-text that even that would be righteous), but you may wish to justify modern warfare, which even the Just War Theory could never make righteous.  Yes?
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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2008, 07:42:39 PM »
Fit you are yoked to pacifism and I am yoked to celibacy, my aren't we a pair? ;D

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2008, 11:32:30 PM »
Donald, I really laughed out loud at that statement. :D ;D

But we are not unequally yoked together! :)

Another difference is that I think all Christians should be pacifists, but neither of us believes that all Christians should be celibate (right?).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 11:35:29 PM by Fit2BThaied »
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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2008, 12:10:31 PM »
No I don't agree on the pacifism thing.  I do think there are times when others are in distress that force is the only thing that can be used to free them from that distress.  Pacifists aren't very good at relieving distress and oppression...they usually just get in the way or get themselves killed in vain.

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2008, 09:27:10 AM »
No I don't agree on the pacifism thing.  I do think there are times when others are in distress that force is the only thing that can be used to free them from that distress.  Pacifists aren't very good at relieving distress and oppression...they usually just get in the way or get themselves killed in vain.
Jesus got in the way and was killed, but not in vain.  Do you have a clear New Testament imperative command that wipes out those clear commands of Matthew 5 and Romans 12 and elsewhere, or is your opinion just based on your human and imperfect observations as a gun collector?  Nonviolent Christian active peacemakers, when given the chance, are very good at relieving distress and oppression.  Violent force against people for whom Jesus died, used intentionally by Christians, is sin. Immoral.  Unjust.  Not justifiable.  Yeah, I know, that is just the opinion of me and a million more Christian pacifists, but what if we are right?




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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2008, 06:30:08 PM »
No I don't agree on the pacifism thing.  I do think there are times when others are in distress that force is the only thing that can be used to free them from that distress.  Pacifists aren't very good at relieving distress and oppression...they usually just get in the way or get themselves killed in vain.
Jesus got in the way and was killed, but not in vain.  Do you have a clear New Testament imperative command that wipes out those clear commands of Matthew 5 and Romans 12 and elsewhere, or is your opinion just based on your human and imperfect observations as a gun collector?  Nonviolent Christian active peacemakers, when given the chance, are very good at relieving distress and oppression.  Violent force against people for whom Jesus died, used intentionally by Christians, is sin. Immoral.  Unjust.  Not justifiable.  Yeah, I know, that is just the opinion of me and a million more Christian pacifists, but what if we are right?






Jesus dying is one thing, you guys dying is quite another.  Sorry I just don't agree.

Offline skiguy

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2008, 07:06:02 AM »
Yeah, I know, that is just the opinion of me and a million more Christian pacifists WITH MESSIANIC COMPLEXES

Jesus' death has absolutely nothing to do with "getting in the way", it has EVERYTHING to do with conquering death and reconciling man and God.

To even compare the POLITICAL ACTIVIST stunts of 'getting in the way' (i.e. protesting) to Jesus' death is not only absurd, it is one of the most egotistical things I've ever read. 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 07:14:39 AM by skiguy »

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2008, 07:00:25 PM »
+1 Skiguy. 8)

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2008, 12:44:38 AM »
No I don't agree on the pacifism thing.  I do think there are times when others are in distress that force is the only thing that can be used to free them from that distress.  Pacifists aren't very good at relieving distress and oppression...they usually just get in the way or get themselves killed in vain.
Jesus got in the way and was killed, but not in vain.  Do you have a clear New Testament imperative command that wipes out those clear commands of Matthew 5 and Romans 12 and elsewhere, or is your opinion just based on your human and imperfect observations as a gun collector?  Nonviolent Christian active peacemakers, when given the chance, are very good at relieving distress and oppression.  Violent force against people for whom Jesus died, used intentionally by Christians, is sin. Immoral.  Unjust.  Not justifiable.  Yeah, I know, that is just the opinion of me and a million more Christian pacifists, but what if we are right?


Jesus dying is one thing, you guys dying is quite another.  Sorry I just don't agree.
You just don't agree, but you also just don't have a command that wipes out all those clear commands.  In other words, your opinion is not based on Scripture, is it?
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Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2008, 12:53:21 AM »
Yeah, I know, that is just the opinion of me and a million more Christian pacifists WITH MESSIANIC COMPLEXES

Jesus' death has absolutely nothing to do with "getting in the way", it has EVERYTHING to do with conquering death and reconciling man and God.

To even compare the POLITICAL ACTIVIST stunts of 'getting in the way' (i.e. protesting) to Jesus' death is not only absurd, it is one of the most egotistical things I've ever read. 
It started in the OT, when prophets of God got in the way of injustice.  You have a weird habit of violently objecting to non-violent peace-making, and violently supporting warfare.

At His arrest, Jesus got in the way of over 500 combat-trained Roman soldiers and caused them to faint to the ground, merely by saying I AM.  As a result, the disciples were not arrested.  Jesus got in the way of the money-changers in the temple, without touching them or their illegal livestock.  Active, non-violent Christians got in the way of Nazis and refused to give up the Jews in their villages.  My friend got in the way of the Israeli soldier's bullets and kept him from firing into the crowd of Muslims at Abraham and Sarah's tomb in Hebron. 

Jesus by his life and death got in the way of the world-wide system of opressioon and violence, so effectively that 1980 years later, we worship the Prince of Peace rather than some false god of violence.
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Offline skiguy

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2008, 04:39:42 AM »
Yeah, I know, that is just the opinion of me and a million more Christian pacifists WITH MESSIANIC COMPLEXES

Jesus' death has absolutely nothing to do with "getting in the way", it has EVERYTHING to do with conquering death and reconciling man and God.

To even compare the POLITICAL ACTIVIST stunts of 'getting in the way' (i.e. protesting) to Jesus' death is not only absurd, it is one of the most egotistical things I've ever read. 
It started in the OT, when prophets of God got in the way of injustice.  You have a weird habit of violently objecting to non-violent peace-making, and violently supporting warfare.

At His arrest, Jesus got in the way of over 500 combat-trained Roman soldiers and caused them to faint to the ground, merely by saying I AM.  As a result, the disciples were not arrested.  Jesus got in the way of the money-changers in the temple, without touching them or their illegal livestock.  Active, non-violent Christians got in the way of Nazis and refused to give up the Jews in their villages.  My friend got in the way of the Israeli soldier's bullets and kept him from firing into the crowd of Muslims at Abraham and Sarah's tomb in Hebron. 

Jesus by his life and death got in the way of the world-wide system of opressioon and violence, so effectively that 1980 years later, we worship the Prince of Peace rather than some false god of violence.

None of those examples have anything to do with political activism or protesting war. How do you not see this? 

So are you saying your Christian Peacekeeper cult Team "gets in the way" because it is written that you will redeem mankind?  If that isn't an example of the Messianic complex, then I don't know what is.    You are placing yourselves equals with God. So when you "get in the way" of soldiers, do you say "I AM" to try to make them fall down?  You've basically just stated that yourself.  That's just pathetic, pride-filled, and evil.  How much more egotistical can a person or group of people get?  :o  That's more Napoleonic than Christian.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 07:03:57 AM by skiguy »

Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2008, 09:42:01 AM »
No I don't agree on the pacifism thing.  I do think there are times when others are in distress that force is the only thing that can be used to free them from that distress.  Pacifists aren't very good at relieving distress and oppression...they usually just get in the way or get themselves killed in vain.
Jesus got in the way and was killed, but not in vain.  Do you have a clear New Testament imperative command that wipes out those clear commands of Matthew 5 and Romans 12 and elsewhere, or is your opinion just based on your human and imperfect observations as a gun collector?  Nonviolent Christian active peacemakers, when given the chance, are very good at relieving distress and oppression.  Violent force against people for whom Jesus died, used intentionally by Christians, is sin. Immoral.  Unjust.  Not justifiable.  Yeah, I know, that is just the opinion of me and a million more Christian pacifists, but what if we are right?


Jesus dying is one thing, you guys dying is quite another.  Sorry I just don't agree.
You just don't agree, but you also just don't have a command that wipes out all those clear commands.  In other words, your opinion is not based on Scripture, is it?

And yours is a twisted interpretation of Scripture just like how the Pharisees twisted Scripture to suit their own ends.

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2008, 05:55:02 AM »
Yeah, I know, that is just the opinion of me and a million more Christian pacifists WITH MESSIANIC COMPLEXES

Jesus' death has absolutely nothing to do with "getting in the way", it has EVERYTHING to do with conquering death and reconciling man and God.

To even compare the POLITICAL ACTIVIST stunts of 'getting in the way' (i.e. protesting) to Jesus' death is not only absurd, it is one of the most egotistical things I've ever read. 
It started in the OT, when prophets of God got in the way of injustice.  You have a weird habit of violently objecting to non-violent peace-making, and violently supporting warfare.

At His arrest, Jesus got in the way of over 500 combat-trained Roman soldiers and caused them to faint to the ground, merely by saying I AM.  As a result, the disciples were not arrested.  Jesus got in the way of the money-changers in the temple, without touching them or their illegal livestock.  Active, non-violent Christians got in the way of Nazis and refused to give up the Jews in their villages.  My friend got in the way of the Israeli soldier's bullets and kept him from firing into the crowd of Muslims at Abraham and Sarah's tomb in Hebron. 

Jesus by his life and death got in the way of the world-wide system of opressioon and violence, so effectively that 1980 years later, we worship the Prince of Peace rather than some false god of violence.

None of those examples have anything to do with political activism or protesting war. How do you not see this? 

So are you saying your Christian Peacekeeper cult Team "gets in the way" because it is written that you will redeem mankind?  If that isn't an example of the Messianic complex, then I don't know what is.    You are placing yourselves equals with God. So when you "get in the way" of soldiers, do you say "I AM" to try to make them fall down?  You've basically just stated that yourself.  That's just pathetic, pride-filled, and evil.  How much more egotistical can a person or group of people get?  :o  That's more Napoleonic than Christian.
Jesus did political things.  The entrance into Jerusalem on a donkey; the cleansing of the temple; talking to the Samaritan woman at the well; telling the story of the good Samaritan who was better than the Levite and the scribe; prophesying the destruction of the temple; answering Pilate that His kingdom was not of this world; practically calling the Syro-Phoenician woman a dog; saying to pay taxes but give God what belonged to Him; how to respond to demands of soldiers; how to drop a lawsuit at the court house door; calling King Herod a fox - all strongly political.  Read Yoder's The Politics of Jesus if you can wade through the graduate-level explanations. Jesus was politically active.  Furthermore, there are some examples in Scripture that we are ordered to obey, which would make us do political actions.

It is not egotistical to figure out which actions of Jesus we are ordered to copy, and then copying them.  It is not egotistical, but obedient.  What are your orders, and why are you not obeying them?  Love your enemy, be a peacemaker, turn the other cheek, give him your cloak also; THAT YOU MAY BE A CHILD OF GOD.

What was my friend supposed to do, in your view, to be obedient to the demands of the New Testament, when the soldier aimed his loaded gun at the innocent Palestinians who were worshiping at the tomb of Abraham and Sarah?  Was she supposed to step aside and let him shoot innocents in the name of modern Israel?

Look at the direct orders of Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John in the New Testament.  They do not order us to wear sandals, be a carpenter, be poor, be Communists or Fascists, or for all of us to be sexually celibate.  We are supposed to do all things whatsoever Jesus commanded us to do.  He did not command us to have Messianic complexes, but he ordered us to do things other than fighting wars.
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Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2008, 06:00:20 AM »
No I don't agree on the pacifism thing.  I do think there are times when others are in distress that force is the only thing that can be used to free them from that distress.  Pacifists aren't very good at relieving distress and oppression...they usually just get in the way or get themselves killed in vain.
Jesus got in the way and was killed, but not in vain.  Do you have a clear New Testament imperative command that wipes out those clear commands of Matthew 5 and Romans 12 and elsewhere, or is your opinion just based on your human and imperfect observations as a gun collector?  Nonviolent Christian active peacemakers, when given the chance, are very good at relieving distress and oppression.  Violent force against people for whom Jesus died, used intentionally by Christians, is sin. Immoral.  Unjust.  Not justifiable.  Yeah, I know, that is just the opinion of me and a million more Christian pacifists, but what if we are right?


Jesus dying is one thing, you guys dying is quite another.  Sorry I just don't agree.
You just don't agree, but you also just don't have a command that wipes out all those clear commands.  In other words, your opinion is not based on Scripture, is it?

And yours is a twisted interpretation of Scripture just like how the Pharisees twisted Scripture to suit their own ends.
Maybe my interpretation of the clear, imperative commands of Scripture are wrong.  At least I have quoted the applicable verses, in context, repeatedly.  IMNSHO, it appears that you have not.  In other words, your opinion is not based on Scripture, is it?
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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2008, 12:12:59 PM »
I don't hold to solo scriptura either as I have said numerous times just like you think arguments from silence in the Bible support your case on other matters.  Your theology is a one trick pony, and I usually associate that with cults who over emphasize one thing in scripture above and beyond all other things.

Offline skiguy

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2008, 01:23:59 PM »
Fit, thank you for proving you are egotistical by saying "why are you not obeying your orders".  Must be that omniscient power you possess to be able to see what I'm doing all the way from Thailand.   ;D
(OK, OK, I admit it.  I'm the one who pillaged that ball from the Baltimore Rugby Club last year.  Should I make reparations?)

Your CPT is really doing a good job in the Israel-Palestine conflict...NOT.  I do notice some similarities..CPT twists Christianity just like Hamas twists Islam.  Oh by the way, here's a tip. CPT should perhaps try to make the effort to understand Muslim culture better and drop the "Christian" from the name.  The majority of Muslims don't really respond well to that.

As far as reading Yoder, I've read most of one of his books already and don't plan on reading anymore of his historically and scripturally inaccurate, activist garbage.  But thanks for the insult.  ;) Perhaps you're correct, maybe I'ze just too dum to undahstand wat he wuz sayeeng.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 01:46:02 PM by skiguy »

Offline skiguy

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2008, 03:19:55 PM »
and I usually associate that with cults who over emphasize one thing in scripture above and beyond all other things.
Good point, Don.  There are other things being exhibited here as well: following the radical teachings of one man or a small group of men who reinterpret the Bible or saying stuff like 99% of others are wrong.  And not only over emphasizing one or two verses, but ignoring other verses.

Those are all cult warning signs.  It's kind of scary how they brainwash people.

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are all things permissible to Christians? What does that mean?
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2008, 12:24:28 AM »
Biblical, conservative, Anabaptist pacifism is older than the denominations such as Episcopal, Methodist and Baptist, etc.  What some of you non-pacifists object to is that a small minority of Anabaptists and non-Anabaptists have recently and imperfectly tried to translate that theory into practice, after the Mennonites and Amish hid in the closet of biblical theology as if they were a cult, which they never were. 

You are welcome to criticize anything.  But you should also write many thousands of helpful, constructive words that will lead the non-pacifist crowd to stop teaching their babies to be warmongers.  Tell us and them how to make peace where there is only war.  Get dressed nonviolently, your feet shod with the gospel of peace, and walk into Hebron or Kabul or Baghdad or Haiti, etc., unarmed physically but well-armed spiritually and scripturally.  If CPT does it wrong, go create 32 better Christian peace-making groups.

Muslims have not been offended by the Christian word in CPT's name, and have started Muslim Peacemaker Groups in....Iraq!

99% of all seminary professors do not teach pacifism, and their followers are.....wrong! ;D
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