Topic: Christianity, absolute morals, the bible and slavery

[DMB]

How am I mocking your god if I mock something in the bible?

I'm interested, Donald, in your last reply. So you do respect the tooth fairy. I wonder what you mean by that.

David B created this thread about respect for religion. I think perhaps you haven't seen it. It might be better perhaps to discuss these issues there rather than to derail this thread, don't you agree?

Because your mocking the author.

You claim that your god is the author. But you know that the bible is a collection of books, of varying quality, written over a long period. There is nothing even within its pages to suggest that your god is the author. So this is something you happen to believe. What is your evidence for this belief?

Similar claims are made about the koran, which directly comes after the bible, contradicts parts of the bible and at least has the merit of a shorter origin in time.

If the bible has to be treated with exaggerated respect and not as an obvious human creation with many flaws, then there is no basis at all for discussion between atheists and Christians of your sect.

[Chancer]

 
 

 
If the bible has to be treated with exaggerated respect and not as an obvious human creation with many flaws, then there is no basis at all for discussion between atheists and Christians of your sect.

This is a belief you carried into this forum, so I ask; why then are you here? You know that christians in general respect the bible and yet your offended by that and say we have no basis for a discussion because of it. Which do you want?

[skiguy]

 

 
If the bible has to be treated with exaggerated respect and not as an obvious human creation with many flaws, then there is no basis at all for discussion between atheists and Christians of your sect.

This is a belief you carried into this forum, so I ask; why then are you here?

Maybe God's calling them to be saved.

[DMB]

If you want censorship of comments about the bible, then I don't want to be here. I agree there would be no point.

I came here because of an invitation to members of IIDB. IRL I know Christians who do not take your view of the bible, which is very close to the Muslim view of the koran. Why should a book be in itself a holy, untouchable thing?

My personal reason for coming here was to see what sort of things people here thought or believed. I was also interested to see how well you stood up in arguments. IMO excessive protectiveness towards the bible suggests a certain lack of confidence in the whole structure. I think, however, that this would be better argued in another thread elsewhere.

[Fit2BThaied]

I cannot keep track of all the different atheists and nonbelievers who have joined us, but this discussion and others have turned into a chorus of statements like,

Well, if you guys believe in a perfectly powerful omniscient etc. God, why would he create an imperfect world, or allow sin, or permit genocide, or even sponsor genocide?  Heck, gosh, I don't know.  Go ask God.  Read the book of Job and see how all his friends, even Job himself, didn't understand.  Maybe you're the one who wants to be omniscient.  I don't doubt the effects of gravity, or step on Superman's cape. 

And just for the record, I was never in favor of slavery or racism or other forms of bigotry.

[DMB]

I cannot keep track of all the different atheists and nonbelievers who have joined us, but this discussion and others have turned into a chorus of statements like,

Well, if you guys believe in a perfectly powerful omniscient etc. God, why would he create an imperfect world, or allow sin, or permit genocide, or even sponsor genocide?  Heck, gosh, I don't know.  Go ask God.  Read the book of Job and see how all his friends, even Job himself, didn't understand.  Maybe you're the one who wants to be omniscient.  I don't doubt the effects of gravity, or step on Superman's cape. 

And just for the record, I was never in favor of slavery or racism or other forms of bigotry.

Hi, Ft2Bthaied.

You have to allow for the fact that most of us are atheists. That means we don't think that your god is real, so we can't ask "him" any more than we can ask the tooth fairy why she pays different amounts for teeth in different families. So when one of us poses a question in the form: "Why does God do X?" it means "What is your justification for believing in a god who allegedly does X?"

I am in a bit of a quandary here. I have so many questions I would like to ask Christians here, but I don't like to derail threads. OTOH I feel there are already rather a lot of threads on the go and poor Donald is trying heroically to spread himself across them all, so I'm reluctant to start new ones. Which is the better option: to allow any topic to take over a thread or to create maybe as many as 6 new threads to cover issues suggested by the arguments?

[Fit2BThaied]

DMB, thanks for your reply.  Not being omniscient, my answer to most of your questions is "I don't know, and even when I think I know, I'm sometimes wrong."  Thanks for clarifying that your questions about "If God is so perfect, why does He..." are really challenges to us believers to 'justify' some reported action or inaction by the God we believe in.  I try not to ask God "Why do you do what you do?" or "Why did you let those people die?" but rather to ask, "What are my orders?  What do you want me to do?"  I find answers to those questions, in the translated text of the Bible, which I find to be an ancient document far more reliably translated than any of the classics.

My answer to you nonbelievers may be that I scored very high on intelligence tests, passed 155 semester hours of undergraduate studies, had a successful career, am now a teacher, and I consider myself to be a reasonable, thinking person.  So, I have no trouble believing in a higher power who was wise and strong enough to create this existence (or what eventually became our existence).  I'm sure that God is far better than I'll ever be.   My Christian faith works for me.  I'm truly sorry that a false faith didn't work for you. 

[DMB]

Fit2BThaied: Sorry, but you haven't really answered my question or replied to what I was saying. Please see my second paragraph, which is asking a simple practical question about the forum.

With regard to your IQ and academic credentials, I can't see what relevance they have. I don't think I have accused anyone here of being stupid or uneducated. I am not questioning the fact that any of the Christians here has a strong religious faith. But I do have a lot of questions about what that faith is. For one thing, my experience is that in any random collection of Christians (which this may or may not be) there is a huge range of religious beliefs and interpretations.

As an atheist, I have an interest in the phenomenon of religious belief: what people believe and why they believe it. I am very interested that your last answer suggests that you don't worry about aspects of the bible that to an unbeliever look very problematical.

You suggest that I have a "false faith" and also that it "doesn't work" for me. I find that intriguing. What faith do you think I have?

[Fit2BThaied]

DMB, I'm not trying to pick a fight.  You're right that you didn't accuse anybody here of having low intelligence, being unlettered, etc.  I have generally thought (without enough evidence, surely) that some nonbelievers think we believers must be stupid and uneducated, etc.  I really haven't had that much dialog with nonbelievers over the years, specifically about belief or unbelief. 

My final sentence should have been in the subjunctive: I'm sorry IF a false faith didn't work for you.  I'm a pragmatist, so if it works, it's real (to me).

I'm sorry if I missed one of your questions and failed to answer.  I can't find your post with its second paragraph.  Ask again if you like.

[DMB]

Hi Fit2BThaied! This was my second para. It's not part of any debate, simply asking for advice about the board.

I am in a bit of a quandary here. I have so many questions I would like to ask Christians here, but I don't like to derail threads. OTOH I feel there are already rather a lot of threads on the go and poor Donald is trying heroically to spread himself across them all, so I'm reluctant to start new ones. Which is the better option: to allow any topic to take over a thread or to create maybe as many as 6 new threads to cover issues suggested by the arguments?

[Fit2BThaied]

Hi Fit2BThaied! This was my second para. It's not part of any debate, simply asking for advice about the board.

I am in a bit of a quandary here. I have so many questions I would like to ask Christians here, but I don't like to derail threads. OTOH I feel there are already rather a lot of threads on the go and poor Donald is trying heroically to spread himself across them all, so I'm reluctant to start new ones. Which is the better option: to allow any topic to take over a thread or to create maybe as many as 6 new threads to cover issues suggested by the arguments?

Oh, now I see it.  My bad.  Sorry.

I am not a moderator, but when I see we've got lots of activity like this, and a subject is getting lots of discussion plus some off topic material, I try to make a new topic.  E.g., I intend to start one on Donald's favorite verse, "All things are permissible."  And when there is already an open topic (e.g., contradicitions in the Bible), I try to make the pertinent remarks there.  As for Donald having the spread himself so thin, I'm trying to post on about have of the open topics.

It's up to you.  I haven't seen the moderators get upset about off topic points, or even splitting or merging topics, as we do on other forums.

[ModernHeretic]

Completely ignoring the tangent about respect, I would like to respond to something Skiguy said earlier:

Nope. Not inconsistent.  The wages of sin is death.  It's like that now and was always like that. 
Actually that verse is better translated as do not murder, not kill.  There is a difference.

Odd that an omnipotent being can't arrane for his works to be translated properly.

still, OK - how is this not murder?

' And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.'

David B

Is that from Joshua? 

By the way, that's not murder, that's judgement - AKA the wrath of God.

Hmm, since God does this, I'd think you people would fear him more than mock him like y'all are doing.

Ok, so a bunch of people picking up their swords and killing their brothers, their companions, and their neighbors is somehow not murder?  You must have a different definition of murder than I do.  Apparently, if God approves of it, that means it's A-OK? 


Given that you think this way, let me present you with a hypothetical scenario:

Let's say one day you're walking down the street.  You hear a booming voice: "Skiguy, I want you to purchase a truckload of assault weapons, get some of your Christian buddies together, and kill everyone in St. Louis"

Your response: "What the hell?  Who is this?"

Voice: "I am the Lord your God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc., and I am commanding you to kill everyone in St. Louis"


Now, at this point you have a few options.  You can:

A)  follow God's commands and attempt to kill everyone in St. Louis, 
B)  talk to God and try to figure out what the deal is, 
C)  tell God you're not going to kill everyone in St. Louis because that would be wrong, or
D)  go see a psychiatrist.


Now, I can tell you that in this situation I'd probably choose either C or D, and most likely D.  Are you seriously telling me that in this situation the moral thing to do would be to kill everyone in St. Louis, simply because God told you to do it?  Please tell me you wouldn't do that.

[gettheebehindsatan]

I only came here to change the "view by # of 666" to 667. Done.

[cadremum]

I see how late I am to this discussion, I want add something here.
No reason to view Old Testament or New for that matter, outside of historical context.
When you have no "U.N" nations (tribes) go war, there is such thing as murder in ancient warfare. Murder is killing your brother not your enemy.
The Bible is a very good source for history, it is the past of Jews and Christians, find peace in your own way and if Jesus
is not your Savior, so be it.
It is a fact that prayer and meditation improve well being, Buddist or Janist your choice here   
The nature of the creator is a mystery, even if you agree with Stephen Hawking, you admit there is no "knowing" and
God's omnipotence is indicative of ancient people realizing the power of internal reflection and sense a connection with the universe
(oceanic experience).
Christianity is a valid structure for a belief system, the question-is not whether the Bible is consistent, rather- is your behavior consistent?
Just my 2cent
 

[Daniel]

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(2 Timothy 3:16)

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost
(2 Peter 1:20 - 21)

--------------------------------

As others have said, problems arise through private interpretations by men of the scriptures.

More importantly, it is the utterances of the Holy Ghost that should be used to determine morality.  The problem, of course, is that many who think they are guided by the Holy Ghost are not.  Ancient Israel was fortunate in having men who were known to people as being prophets who were moved to speak by the Holy Ghost.