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Author Topic: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?  (Read 7879 times)

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Offline Fit2BThaied

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Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« on: July 22, 2007, 08:46:48 AM »
Since skiguy challenged this point of mine in another thread (regarding judging Muslims for their sins, and by my inferrence, he seems to think that we have the divine right to execute God's judgment upon non-believers), here's the passage.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 (New International Version), " 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside..."

Who knows of a New Testament command that contravenes or limits this Scripture?  Am I quoting out of context?  Did Paul not write that?
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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2007, 10:18:18 AM »
Since skiguy challenged this point of mine in another thread (regarding judging Muslims for their sins, and by my inferrence, he seems to think that we have the divine right to execute God's judgment upon non-believers), here's the passage.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 (New International Version), " 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside..."

Who knows of a New Testament command that contravenes or limits this Scripture?? Am I quoting out of context?? Did Paul not write that?

As I read the whole of 1 Corinthians chapter 5, Paul says it is permissible to judge Christians "inside" but not to judge those "outside."  He also speaks of abstaining from those who practice sexual immorality, but he meant those who are Christians on the "inside" rather than those on the "outside" or we would not have a reason to go out into the world.  In other words, Paul is saying to admonish Christians who err, but to not do so to those of the world who don't know any better because they lack the word of God.  In fact the title of chapter five in my New King James Version is "Immorality in the Church must be judged." :)

skiguy

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2007, 10:48:07 AM »
To answer the topic question: No.

Are we to judge other Christians however?? ?THAT answer would be No.
Quote
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for The Lord is able to make him stand."

"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to The Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to The Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to The Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord."

"For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that He might be The Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says The Lord, 'every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

"So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another."
Romans 14:1-13

Now are these verses saying to not judge non-Christians?   


Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2007, 07:07:01 PM »
skiguy, I don't see how you come to the first conclusion in your first reply, above.

As Donald and I have already pointed out, it appears clear to us, and to the commentators we've just checked, that I Corinthians 5 forbids us to judge non-Christians.  You seem to be contradicting that, without quoting a Scripture that shows your point.

Romans 14, however, does seem to throw other light on the question of whether we inside the church can 'judge' one another.   In Romans 14, however, the narrow issue under discussion seems to be fine points of ritual observance.  My study bible suggests that the weak Christians are probably Jewish Christians who are still unwilling to abandon their Levitical/kosher habits such as diet and weekly worship. The examples in the passage you cited are the eating of meat or vegetables, and the honoring of one day such as Saturday/Sunday more than another.  I disagree, for example, with Seventh Day Adventists if they are too strict in observing OT diet and worship practices, as I believe that Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Law of Moses when he died at Calvary.  But I have no right to condemn Adventists just for those practices, and they have no right to condemn me if I worship on Sunday instead of sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. 

Don't we all condemn the practice of abortion?  But should we limit that to the practice of abortion by Christians, and treat non-Christians who practice abortion differently? 

I inferred from your prior comments in the other topic, skiguy, that you believe we Christians have permission or mandate from God to kill Muslims because....I don't know exactly why, but wouldn't killing be the ultimate form of judging them?
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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2007, 08:51:00 PM »
Skiguy's scripture shows that Christians should not judge other Christians who yoke themselves to certain things such as foods they eat or religious practices they observe.  For example, I cannot judge you, Fit, because you yoke yourself to pacifism.  Likewise, you cannot judge me for not being yoked to it.  It's called Christian Liberty and it's God's way of making allowances in the diversity of the body of Christ.

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2007, 09:25:27 PM »
Skiguy's scripture shows that Christians should not judge other Christians who yoke themselves to certain things such as foods they eat or religious practices they observe.  For example, I cannot judge you, Fit, because you yoke yourself to pacifism.  Likewise, you cannot judge me for not being yoked to it.  It's called Christian Liberty and it's God's way of making allowances in the diversity of the body of Christ.
Maybe you're right, Donald.  But if that's so, what is the criteria or the threshold of immoral behavior that we can judge one another?  Or that a bishop can judge a communicant under his control?  The text of Romans 14 only mentions diet and sacred days, not slaughtering innocent victims on an altar in Aztec style, or incinerating them in atomic bombs.  Yet, both John Paul II and Billy Graham publicly denounced nuclear warfare as being inconsistent with the Just War Theory, and nobody thinks the church should have sat quietly by during the Nazi Holocaust or the Rwandan genocides.  The Catholic bishop in America thinks Guliani should not receive communion because of his partial support of abortion.  Is there nothing left to judge by your standard?

If another Christian can go commit genocide without being judged by the church, isn't that equivalent to the low point in the book of Judges, when everybody just did what was right in their own sight?  I don't know where to draw the line.
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skiguy

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2007, 05:25:18 AM »

I inferred from your prior comments in the other topic, skiguy, that you believe we Christians have permission or mandate from God to kill Muslims because....I don't know exactly why, but wouldn't killing be the ultimate form of judging them?

When I did I even come close to inferring that we are mandated by God to kill Muslims?? ??? I don't always like to bring up what I'm going to school for because I feel like I'm bragging, but sometimes one needs a bit of arrogance to debate someone with as much arrogance as you have. Anyway, I'm also minoring in Middle Eastern studies because I want to understand them and their religion.? I want to work with them to bring peace.  I argue more with people (Right-wing Republicans)? who think Islam is about terrorism or is evil.? I rarely listen to right-wing radio now because most of them say that...as a matter of fact, I blame those radio pundits for misinformation, instilling racsism, and spreading Islamophobia.? (you know as well as I do AI Jane is good evidence of this).
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 07:19:17 AM by skiguy »

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2007, 10:45:47 AM »

I inferred from your prior comments in the other topic, skiguy, that you believe we Christians have permission or mandate from God to kill Muslims because....I don't know exactly why, but wouldn't killing be the ultimate form of judging them?

When I did I even come close to inferring that we are mandated by God to kill Muslims?  ??? I don't always like to bring up what I'm going to school for because I feel like I'm bragging, but sometimes one needs a bit of arrogance to debate someone with as much arrogance as you have. Anyway, I'm also minoring in Middle Eastern studies because I want to understand them and their religion.  I want to work with them to bring peace.  I argue more with people (Right-wing Republicans)  who think Islam is about terrorism or is evil.  I rarely listen to right-wing radio now because most of them say that...as a matter of fact, I blame those radio pundits for misinformation, instilling racsism, and spreading Islamophobia.  (you know as well as I do AI Jane is good evidence of this).

Pardon me if this is arrogant, but I was stating that the inference was mine, not that you implied it.  What are you saying about Christians having permission to judge the actions of Muslims?  It escaped me.  I haven't been over to AI-Jane for months, but surely you weren't the Islamophobe there.  Since you get your theology directly from Scripture, where are you coming from in this discussion? I'm confused.
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Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2007, 10:52:20 AM »
skiguy, this is your comment that prompted me to start this thread; please pardon me for not quoting it here earlier.

"And what's all this talk about not judging non-Christians?  Then how do we judge what's sin and what's not?   We are never commanded to not judge...as a matter of fact, it's quite the opposite.  Are you implying we are not supposed to tell others what the wages of sin are? Huh"

Would you care to rephrase that now, or to explain what you mean, please?  Thanks.
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skiguy

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2007, 10:53:52 AM »
[Pardon me if this is arrogant, but I was stating that the inference was mine, not that you implied it.? What are you saying about Christians having permission to judge the actions of Muslims?? It escaped me.
It probably escaped you because I said nothing to that effect. ? If I'm judging anything, it's the terrorists. ?Are you going to say I'm wrong for judging their actions of murder. torture, and suicide bombings?

Quote
? I haven't been over to AI-Jane for months, but surely you weren't the Islamophobe there.? Since you get your theology directly from Scripture, where are you coming from in this discussion? I'm confused.
That's because I'm going way off the original topic. ?;D

skiguy

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2007, 10:59:11 AM »
skiguy, this is your comment that prompted me to start this thread; please pardon me for not quoting it here earlier.

"And what's all this talk about not judging non-Christians?? Then how do we judge what's sin and what's not?? ?We are never commanded to not judge...as a matter of fact, it's quite the opposite.? Are you implying we are not supposed to tell others what the wages of sin are? Huh"

Would you care to rephrase that now, or to explain what you mean, please?? Thanks.

Well, let's break it down.  Maybe you'll understand.

1) How do we judge what is sin?  Are you implying we are not supposed to do that?   

2) Are you saying we are not supposed to determine if someone is or isn't saved? Then what's your criteria for telling those who don't know the Gospel about salvation in Christ? 

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2007, 08:14:35 AM »
Let's see if I can start with something we agree.   :)

I think we agree that every human being has to judge/decide by his own conscience, what is sin and what is God's will, for moral-ethical content.  Romans 1 to 3 probably cover that.

I thought you, as a Christian, judge the ethics of Muslims, and I still think that probably violates 1 Corinthians 5:12-13.  I'm surprised nobody has quoted Matthew7 :1-2, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."  I think this means that when we do use ethical criteria to judge another person (another Christian), we are subjecting ourself to the same criteria.

But maybe we don't know what each other means by the Greek verb translated "judge."


--

skiguy, this is your comment that prompted me to start this thread; please pardon me for not quoting it here earlier.

"And what's all this talk about not judging non-Christians?  Then how do we judge what's sin and what's not?   We are never commanded to not judge...as a matter of fact, it's quite the opposite.  Are you implying we are not supposed to tell others what the wages of sin are? Huh"

Would you care to rephrase that now, or to explain what you mean, please?  Thanks.

Well, let's break it down.  Maybe you'll understand.

1) How do we judge what is sin?  Are you implying we are not supposed to do that?   

2) Are you saying we are not supposed to determine if someone is or isn't saved? Then what's your criteria for telling those who don't know the Gospel about salvation in Christ? 
To answer your questions, I believe we are to proclaim the Gospel (primarily by good deeds, and if necessary, by words) to the world without deciding who is or isn't saved.  Aren't you one of the posters who has publicly declared by your judgment that I'm not saved?  Again, I think that's precisely the point in I Cor 5, just as Romans 12 and other verses in both testaments leave vengeance to God and to his manipulation of pagan governments.  Why is it a surprise or a heresy that our job description is not identical to God's?  However, our job description is to imitate Christ's behavior in the ways that he encountered oppression and violence, and to obey Christ's commands.

My interpretation about spreading the Gospel comes from the Great Commission, which when stripped of its introductory past perfect participial phrases, commands us to be running around the world "teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you."  You see, I'm a conservative who thinks we're supposed to obey commands!  And youuuu?  Do you think the Great Commission or any other applicable command in the New Testament authorizes Christians to go kill terrorists?  Where?  When?  How?  Which verses?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 08:18:34 AM by Fit2BThaied »
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Offline Donald Baker

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2007, 10:59:38 AM »
To my knowledge Fit nobody here has made any claims about any member's salvation status.  If you feel skiguy did, post where he said it.

skiguy

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2007, 12:38:19 PM »
I may have done that on another board.  Bearpit I believe.  I do apologize for that.  I do have a problem with letting people get to me and then lashing out.

Offline Fit2BThaied

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2007, 01:17:25 PM »
Apology accepted.  In turn, I apologize for provoking you.

I don't see where I mentioned it in this topic, but we've already agreed (I think) that Christians are allowed to judge those within the fellowship of Christ, though we haven't discussed the method by which that judging is done.  Christ instructs us how to do that in a local congregation, in Matthew 18:15-17, but that's a bit difficult on an internet forum.

Now, where are we in this discussion?
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Offline joyfullheartme

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Re: Are we forbidden to judge non-Christians?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2007, 02:37:16 AM »
Amen Donald....And that is all that I have to say about that... 8)   :D :D

 

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